Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 11:01 am


Several years ago, as I was starting to learn machining, I was captivated by the recursive nature of the equipment. A lathe can make all kinds of things, but it can also make another lathe. It's a von Neumann machine waiting for an operator. Powerful stuff. Except, of course, it immediately raises the same question that biological life does: where did the first one come from? As far as I'm concerned, the genesis of something, the bootstrapping process, is always more interesting than the thing itself.

On the bus ride home from the student shop, I started thinking about the bootstrapping of our civilization. There is, demonstrably, a way to start with twigs and rocks and end up with a laser. What are the steps? What are the exact dependencies in the tech tree? How many different ways are there to get from A to B? And, most intriguingly, how much could a single person do in a lifetime?

I started to develop the concept as background for a cyberpunk novel. I imagined a well-known, if rather geeky and obsessive, hobby of people tracing and recreating the tech tree of civilization. It would serve as a framework for the novel itself, with excerpts from discussion fora and reference books providing the header for each chapter. There would be a standard hierarchical ranking of technologies, with endless arguments about the exact categorization of the use of "native" meteoric iron, or copper ores naturally high in tin content but without any actual intent to alloy. There would flurries of excitement whenever someone proved that a certain level of technology was theoretically redundant and could be skipped. There would be specialty stores, selling ores of various grades and exotic woods, hides and dung. Tourism packages where you could go mine your own raw materials. Most people would be content to prove mastery of a technology once, and then buy the resulting product in bulk for future steps, but there would be a small-but-loud group of purists who would smelt every gram of copper used in the entire process. There would be a common end goal that most people would be trying to achieve, like a radio or a laser, but there would be all kinds of people with their own personal goal. Some would specialize in a specific age and be recognized experts for specific technologies. Some would faithfully follow the development history of a specific culture, while others would try to minimize the steps in the process. It would be a glorious mess of creativity and bonding to our technological roots.

The funny thing is, I liked the idea so much that instead of writing it, I've spent the last few years moving closer and closer to implementing it in real life. A lot of the philosophical arguments I had imagined ended up framing the recent copper smelting for me. Does it count if you buy the ore from ebay and use an electric blower? I'm finding that, while doing so is a perfectly good way to learn the basic techniques, it just doesn't feel complete to me. Someday I'm going to have to do a run with ore I dug out of the ground (once I find some!), using human-powered bellows.

This hobby needs a name, though. I'm trying to document things on the web, because thanks to the power of the internet I know similar minded freaks will eventually find it. (Sooner rather than later, in my experience.) But without a name to tie it all together it's just a random collection of amateur experimental archeology. The full name needs to be a unique term, but preferably it would have a catchy shortform that made a good verb. Something that catches the awe of stepping your way through the results of millions of people-years of struggle and toil. Civilization bootstrapping? Technology spelunking? Resurrecting? My word-powers are failing me here.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 07:31 pm (UTC)
Psychosis.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 07:32 pm (UTC)
Invention reenaction?
Technofundamentalism?
Devolution?
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:25 pm (UTC)
Argh! There's a book about this; not a discussion book, but a how-too book, how to build a machine shop starting with stone age technology, with all the intermediate tool steps documented. I forget what it's called. [livejournal.com profile] rmd has a copy.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:37 pm (UTC)
There are the Gingery Books (http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html), which are very good but unfortunately aren't actually about full neolithic bootstrapping. If there is a more involved one out there, I'd certainly like to find out about it.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 09:27 pm (UTC)
I've asked on another mailing list, and yeah, the gingery books are getting a lot of mention. Certainly that's what [livejournal.com profile] rmd has. But someone else thinks they've seen a book with full neolithic bootstrapping, as well, so I'll keep hunting.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 09:50 pm (UTC)
Do you know about this? http://www.lindsaybks.com/HomePage.html
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:31 pm (UTC)
I'd call it, "self-sufficiency".

That's actually part of the reason I'm vegan. Most everything I eat, I can make from scratch. Either growing, or milling, or preparing from smaller building blocks.

Once I learn how to make a cat... look out.

[livejournal.com profile] joeyfalconetti and I had a discussion last night in the same vein. A group of researchers, are currently engineering membranes, stacking them, and making meat. They can, to some degree, play with the nutritional makeup of the flesh as well. Say... replace all the omega-6 fatty acids, with omega-3 fatty acids, rendering the food a tad more balanced.

But would that remove the philosophical problem I have with eating meat? Nothing died... no suffering... I imagine, if I had the time and the funds, I could learn to make it... Hard to say.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:35 pm (UTC)
You ought to be OK with cannibalism, then, right?
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:52 pm (UTC)
Totally! Not for that reason... but that strengthens my philosophical argument for why "Long Pig" is what's for dinner.

Cannibalism fits into the vegan framework, due to the Oral Sex loophole. I should give it a better name, like "McBride's theory of the transitive nature of animal byproducts." That's kind of long... perhaps "Sean's Axiom." Not to be confused with "Outback's Axiom" which clearly states, "No rules, just right."

The oral sex loophole is where I postulate that sexually active vegans who engage in oral sex, are consuming the animal bi-products of humans. It may be male ejaculate, or female ejaculate. While, at the same time, they will not consume the bi-products of other animals, be it milk... or... we'll stop on that road.
The point is, they will not eat these things due to their source. So, with those pieces of information, we can pretty much declare that I'm having REAL BABY BACK RIBS tonight.

Shit... I don't have a uterus.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:54 pm (UTC)
Also also: In re-reading, I discover that "Sexually Active Vegans" would be an awesome band name.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:57 pm (UTC)
Amusingly, I had a similar discussion with [livejournal.com profile] lilsquishy who did some research and discovered that breast milk is not only kosher but parve, on the grounds that humans are officially not animals in the eyes of the Jewish authorities. It therefore follows that human meat is also kosher...
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 09:10 pm (UTC)
That's just about the best thing I ever read.

I'm now dreaming of a vegan Shabbat, that includes people who aren't on the guest list.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 08:33 pm (UTC)
Write the book too. I'll get a copy.

What to call the hobby?

It sounds sort of like the SCA in a weird way. It's the anti-SCA, since in the SCA it's quite common to use modern machine tools to make less-modern weapons and stuff.

Must ponder...
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 09:58 pm (UTC)
Inverse recursion? Regressive progression? Qualitative technoshamanry? Lemon curry?
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:02 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure what to call the hobby, but your description reminds me strongly of one of my all-time favorite filk songs, Uplift, by Andrew Eigel.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:21 pm (UTC)
Aha! I had been meaning to figure out the name of that song. I think of it regularly in this context, particularly the line 'in the cellar of history'. Good imagery, that.

In fact, last time I heard it, I joted down some ideas for a song with one verse for each age, with technically accurate descriptions of each breakthrough technology.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:35 pm (UTC)
Oh! I'm sorry, I thought I'd told you that I went and looked up the name of it right after Pondfilk (which was the last time we heard it). I still have a tab to the lyrics open in Firefox on Phedre, if you want to go look. Blake said he had a recording of it, but Jenn and I couldn't find it. I've been meaning to ask around other filkers; I've just been forgetting that part.
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:48 pm (UTC)
COOL! I hope your jottings-down become a song soon.

Some folks at Confluence may know Uplift well enough to perform it. We can hope, anyway. If they do, I'll have the MP3 recorder with me so we can nab it. :)
Monday, July 18th, 2005 07:03 pm (UTC)
You should have asked!
Monday, July 18th, 2005 07:08 pm (UTC)
Also, the idea of actually doing this is totally awesome. I can imagine some kind of advanced scout camp, where a troop of scouts are shipped off to the woods with no technology at all and are supposed to build a radio by the end of the summer.

I'd go with the name "bootstrapping", myself.
Tuesday, July 19th, 2005 10:04 am (UTC)
Maybe I should get myself listed as a guide for the metalworking merit badge. Quite a bit of is left to their discretion...
Tuesday, July 19th, 2005 11:27 pm (UTC)
Orawnzva wrote:
You should have asked!

Argh! Yes, I should have. In fact, I meant to do that... darnit! :)
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:08 pm (UTC)
I don't have a good name for the hobby. But I'm noticing parallels in your post with Connections (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559270667/) by James Burke (http://www.palmersguide.com/jamesburke/). The TV Series (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000DIZSJ/qid=1121205968) was particularly nifty, but damned if I'm gonna pay over 100 bucks for it.

Note to people who publish TV series on DVDs: Charge as much as they did for the "Firefly" series and I'll buy it. Do not charge $75-$150 for it and expect me to buy it.

Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:22 pm (UTC)
An old favorite of mine. I wish Netflix would carry it.
Wednesday, September 13th, 2006 05:49 pm (UTC)
originally dated 2005-07-29 09:06 pm UTC, edited for spelling

Mine too. I remember seeing torrents for it in Torrent Reactor.
[UPDATE] Happiness! I've found links for Connections 1 (http://www.mvgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1181), 2 (http://www.mvgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3366), and 3 (http://www.mvgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3855).

Oh, your entry goes in my memories. :)
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 10:14 pm (UTC)
What about just 'bootstrapping'?
Tuesday, July 12th, 2005 11:28 pm (UTC)
Seems a little too far towards this side of spectrum, since the idea is to start at the other end. Pre-computers, and pre... uh... pre-boots.

Wednesday, July 13th, 2005 03:38 am (UTC)
Don't have a good word for it, but it's definitely a sub-genre of historical re-creation, as in the SCA, Civil War re-creation, historical costuming, and the like.

If you haven't already, go and read The Mysterious Island by Jules Verne. (Also available here from Project Gutenberg.)
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005 04:09 am (UTC)
You really need to write this book. Then, when we manage to open a wormhole into the past, we have something to drop into it.
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005 04:36 am (UTC)
I'm fascinated by the process of increasing precision: how you can work with and around the errors in a system to build something better -- marking gear teeth precisely by using a worm gear; forming a precise worm gear (or threaded rod) by using a two-point threading tool, and other processes that the old machinists used to build sextants from scrap. Similarly, compiler design, of increasing sophistication, using lower-level compilers: some time soon people will look back at that in exactly the same light.
Is it hand-made jewelry if I built the CNC mill that makes the jewelry? all the castings, all the machining, all the programming?
Wednesday, July 13th, 2005 09:03 am (UTC)
I've been thinking about this sort of thing, off and on, for the last 20 years, but I never thought it needed a name, since no one else out there seemed to care.

If the nanotech enthusiasts are going anyplace with their passion, I'd call it, "reverse engineering robust nanotech". Just trace the history backwards, and see how tightly you can compress it.

If you get the name of that book, I want to know and buy myself a copy, because this sort of thing is going to loom large in my starship story.
Monday, July 25th, 2005 03:43 pm (UTC)
How about DIAY? (Do It All Yourself)

You could also call it "crusoeing", since it's a lot like Robinson Crusoe's efforts to make a kiln, canoe, and umbrella.
Monday, July 25th, 2005 03:45 pm (UTC)

Once you understand the underlying physical principles, I imagine things like lasers are much easier to construct than you might guess. Vernor Vinge touches on this in "A Fire Upon the Deep (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812515285)" (actually, he explores the theme a little in almost all his novels). They have to come up with some major technological advantage to give peopple who don't have much tech yet. They figure out how to build radios using only iron age tech, and given the nature of the creatures they're giving the tech to (group minds composed of 3-8 individuals who's brains are in direct communication via a sort of biological modem) the tech advantage is huge. One individual can suddenly be in many different places at once.

In his novel "Marooned in Realtime (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0765308843)" he specifically refers to members of a high tech civilization engaging in 'survival games' where they cast off most of their technology and try to use ancient tech means to survive.

Depending on your particular creative process, you may or may not want to read these prior examples of the theme. :-)

Tuesday, July 26th, 2005 05:34 pm (UTC)
I've given some thought to this in a loosely survivalist way, but not with such advanced technology. For example, I can start a fire with a magnifying glass, a lighter, or matches, but if the world goes to shit and I run out of lighter fluid and matches and someone steals or breaks my magnifying glass I want to know how to use a bow drill, too, because heat for cooking and keeping warm is one of those Really Important Things. But to use a bow drill I have to know how to make, at least, a crude knife (stone? waste glass/metal?), and have some sort of string or twine (also something that could conceivably be scavenged from waste matter). To this end I've learned to spin and will experiment soon with making thread out of nettles.

My perspective on this is always fairly post-world-falling-apart so there is garbage that can be scavenged and cobbled together, although it's hard to say what the availability will be.

I think the biggest obstacle to getting very far with technology-from-scratch, even with good garbage scavenging, is that just staying alive takes really rather a lot of effort. Of course if you're alive now and you have advanced technology to make the just staying alive bit easier, you could get really quite a lot done in terms of technology from scratch.

Sunday, October 16th, 2005 03:17 am (UTC)
I think the biggest obstacle to getting very far with technology-from-scratch, even with good garbage scavenging, is that just staying alive takes really rather a lot of effort. Of course if you're alive now and you have advanced technology to make the just staying alive bit easier, you could get really quite a lot done in terms of technology from scratch.

Exactly right. Civilisation wasn't able to really advance until we had food surplus and ways to store food. I've often thought that 'social society' for want of a better term would be very necessesary, post collapse. That is to say a way to divide labour duties; "George, you are good with finding food, you go with Edna and bring some back. Edith and I will stay here and build fire, and work on making knives."

I would be very interested to see a 'tech tree' going from Stone age to Laser.
Saturday, July 30th, 2005 02:46 pm (UTC)
I like "bootstrapping."

Here's a guy who has the same kind of interest:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2005_03_06_archive.html#111015374164703844
Thursday, August 4th, 2005 11:53 pm (UTC)
Recivilization?