Some political ramblings

[gfish]

Troop withdrawal would be a 'victory for the terrorists': Cheney

The thing is, I agree with him. Abandoning Iraq now will just leave an ugly mess of a failed state, kill tens of thousands of people in a nasty civil war, and generally provide a far better base of operations to the bad guys than Somalia or Afghanistan ever was, all while further eroding our moral authority.

That said, Cheney's statement is disingenuous in that implies the alternative is better in some way. Unfortunately, us staying in Iraq is also a victory for the terrorists. Man, there is nothing more dumb than maneuvering yourself into a lose-lose situation. I understand having a strategy fail. It happens. But to get yourself into a situation with no winning solution out of willful ignorance, that's just dumb.

It's nice to see the Dems start to regain a backbone, but I sure wish they would actively define the discourse better. Talking in terms of false opposites just plays into Karl Rove's hands. I'm glad the recent GOP attempt at memetic engineering (the 'rewriting history' charge) doesn't seem to have stuck, but I suspect that is more because of their current political troubles than due to any sudden lack of rhetorical genius on their part. Until we develop our ability to quickly and powerfully label concepts in our favor, this technique is going to continue to be a power tool for the right. The Dems need to forget about sound-bites (which only target the mass media, very last century) and focus on this level of lexical manipulation (which can define the very nature of how everyone thinks about the issue, and only get stronger every time someone uses them).

Comments

[sistawendy.livejournal.com]

The thing is, I agree with him. Abandoning Iraq now will just leave an ugly mess of a failed state, kill tens of thousands of people in a nasty civil war, and generally provide a far better base of operations to the bad guys than Somalia or Afghanistan ever was, all while further eroding our moral authority.

Reading my mind, were you?

Here's my attempt at memetic engineering: the Bushies fabricated intelligence. The Dems would have had more credibility if they'd said so earlier, but better late than never.

[xmurf.livejournal.com]

I agree with you to a point, but it's very obvious to me that continued US presence in Iraq is much worse for everyone involved than an immediate pullout, however bad the latter may be.

[xmurf.livejournal.com]

On a semi-related note, the front page of the Seattle Times today has one of the creepiest quotes yet (from memory, may not be exact): "Bush says it's now OK to disagree about Iraq."

[tikimonkey.livejournal.com]

all i can say is "amen, brother."

[ilmarinen.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not like Afghanistan is exactly a peaceful place these days is it? We turned it over to a different set of repressive warlords is all. We choose to turn Iraq into a battle ground against Al Qaeda, much like we used Afghanistan as a battleground against the Soviets for decades in the past. Prior to the war, Iraq was not connected to the Al Qaeda network, and was a secular state, which is in opposition to Al Qaeda goals. No, it was not a nice secular state, but there are plenty of not-nice secular states in the world that we have no problems being buddy-buddy with.

The US has no more moral authority to finish the job. This is not, and never will be, "won" through military might. We have lost. We probably had lost from the beginning, but after the first torture pictures came out, we truly and completely lost. All the rest is just prolonging the agony for everyone. No, we can't just walk out, although that's never stopped us in the past. We need to convince someone to step-in and take charge who might have some moral standing. The UN is about the only option, but we rebuffed them when they offered. Sure, they don't have the best track record for military effectiveness, but maybe they'd do a better job if the member nations actually backed them up and made it clear they supported the UN. (Might help their prestige a bit if we didn't publicly thumb our noses at them and their decisions, refuse to pay our bills, send an insult as a representative, etc.) And then we must provide the bulk of the military and funding for the UN mission. And we must pay war reparations, instead of talking about "the spoils of war" and expecting Iraq to reimburse us for the cost of invading their country (from oil sale revenues of course).

This is a war between extreme religious/ideological factions in the world. I don't why these extreme minority factions are in ascendance in the world, and hold the political power, but it scares the hell out of me. This is the American Neocons vs. Muslim Extremists. They are dragging the rest of the world into their hell. (In terms of their respective political power, they are each other's best friend, 9/11 provided the excuse for completing the Neocon power take-over in America.) First thing, we need to get control of our country out of the hands of our local extremists.

Regime change begins at home.

-B.

[randomdreams.livejournal.com]

It's clearly better for our troops. I'm not sure it's better for Iraq itself, which might well do a South Vietnam. That might be where it's headed in any case, though.

[randomdreams.livejournal.com]

George Bush, pere, said in his autobiography that they decided to not invade Iraq because they could not figure out what to do then -- they knew this was going to happen. Maybe Dubya was expecting a miracle, that God would show up and smite the evildoers. That's the only thing I can figure. So, no, it wasn't willful ignorance. There was no ignorance involved: this was calculated. (I'm betting that it's part of the overall Dubya plan to bankrupt the US goverment, at which point disposing of social security and welfare and education aid will be vastly easier: they can set up a similar false dichotomy to justify it.)

I don't think we should leave, now that we have converted Iraq from a nasty but small pestilence into the biggest and most sophisticated training grounds for terrorists in the world. But that doesn't mean that we can continue on our current path, because it'll continue directly on to a full-scale Vietnam.

[craigp.livejournal.com]

i think, on dubya's part, it was willful ignorance. he's surrounded himself with neocon cronies who told him what to think, and didn't bother him with conflicting details. so i'm quite prepared to believe he was shown stilted intelligence (it's not like he'd bother to read all those reports, right)?

as murtha said, bush sr talked to folks (like murtha), listened to what they had to say. he didn't always agree or follow their advice, but he was informed (and cared).

many folks who had worked with bush sr and company (snowcroft, etc) are expressing great disappointment in cheney/rumsfeld/etc for how they've "advised" dubya, and how different things were back in the day.

[craigp.livejournal.com]

my god, the fact that i'm expounding bush sr's virtues, and how good he was for the country (compared to his god-awful son)...

i never thought i'd see the day. papa bush was a saint in comparison.

[craigp.livejournal.com]

we caused the mess, and we should be ashamed and hold ourselves (and in particular our leaders) accountable. pulling out now (or soon, say after the december elections) is the best way to diffuse the tensions; staying longer will only make things worse (both for ourselves and iraqi's).

we've killed tens of thousands of iraqi civilians; i don't think it's a given that they'll do worse.

if it wasn't for mistake after mistake (eg: abu ghraib), we could have avoided or at least salvaged this mess. we need a political, not military solution at this point. what else can we possibly do militarily?

[tmfkan64.livejournal.com]

I'm not at all convinced that "vs." is the correct word there. It seems to me that their goals are more in agreement than in opposition.

[tmfkan64.livejournal.com]

The best thing Bush Sr. ever did for his legacy was help his son get elected president. Bush Sr. now seems like the model of wisdom and eloquence...

[orawnzva.livejournal.com]

All fanatical groups are opposed to each other. Fnord.

[randomdreams.livejournal.com]

I don't know. The best I can think of is get the UN to 'take over' and call the shots, and we supply the muscle. Kind of like calling your boss to tell you what to do, when you've screwed up, and you do the sweeping.

[grinninfoole.livejournal.com]

He's still a traitor, though.

[grinninfoole.livejournal.com]

That will still mean American soldiers at the forefront, so that won't really change anything. As I see it, we have two choices: either leave, whatever happens, or stay, whatever happens. Personally, I don't see how leaving will make things any worse, and it will make a number of things better. It will, for one thing, be cheaper.